Wednesday, March 10, 2010

Hot topic: Round II and how it works

This from a reader:
I was wondering if you could please start a new topic about the process should we get 0/7 this week. I have looked at the the SFUSD booklet and I still don't really understand the process.Is there a whole new lottery with seven schools plus a waitpool school? Any advice would be appreciated.

43 comments:

  1. From what I understand (from quizzing PPS in the fall), you are talking about two different things.

    First is the wait pool - where you can wait list one school. It is run after the enrollment deadline (when everyone must accept their assignments by) and before Round 2 and continues to be run until the 10 day count (which is now a 5 day count?).

    The second is Round 2. This is just like round 1, except it is recommended to choose schools that have openings to fill. Listing a school that is already full is pretty useless, especially if it also has a wait pool. You do not have to do round 2. You can do the wait list without doing round 2. It just gives you more chances to get a school...

    Good luck everyone. I am not sure I can make it till the mail comes Saturday!

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  2. after I commented I just got this:

    As you are probably aware, San Francisco public school assignment letters will be sent to parents on Friday, March 12, 2010. While many parents will be assigned to one of their choices you will have some parents who wish to search for other public school options. Please inform your families that they can participate in the following ways after they receive their assignment:
    By Friday, March 26, 2010 Parents can :

    * REGISTER at their assigned school;
    * APPEAL: submit a hardship/medical appeal; an approved appeal will not guarantee them a space at a school, but will give them priority in the waitpool.
    * AMENDED APPLICATION: submit up to 7 more schools they would consider
    * WAITPOOL for one school

    Parents can do any or all of these. Registering at a school or submitting an appeal or amended application does not affect their chances of getting assigned to a school through the waitpool.
    We recommend parents attend one of the SFUSD Counseling Sessions if they want to participate with an Amended Application, Appeal or Waitpool.

    *
    Thursday, March 18, 2010 from 6-8pm at John Muir Elementary, 380 Webster Street @ Oak St.
    *
    Saturday, March 20, 2010 from 10am to 12pm at Sunnyside Elementary, 250 Foerster Street

    Parents for Public Schools of San Francisco can be a valuable resource during this period. We offer:

    * Tips for Parents in Round II. Available on our website www.ppssf.org. Flyers are available in English, Spanish and Chinese
    * Rd II counseling by knowledgeable PPS staff and parent volunteers.
    * Parent Ambassadors representing a wide range of public schools in SF.

    For more information about these services and how PPS-SF can work with you and parents at your school please contact us at 861-7077 or at info@ppssf.org.

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  3. So, let's say we get assigned a school that is acceptable (not one of our seven) and not a great match for us. If we go round II and also sign up for the wait pool for a school more desirable to us, would we be more likely to get the school in the Round II lottery or through the waitpool? If another person rejects their spot in the school we are seeking, does their space go to the openings in round 2 or to the waitpool. What is the order of things?

    THANKS

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  4. If you don't get any of your choices (0/7), but find that your assigned school is acceptable but not great, you should register for that school, put in a waitpool school, plus turn in an amended application.

    This will hold your spot at an OK school, plus put you into Round II (a.k.a. "amended application") and the waitpool.

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  5. Before the letters come out, can we get a reality check poll going like the one on the main page, but for 2010:

    For Fall Kinder, did you get:

    A your 1st choice
    B One of your choices (pretend everyone put 7, if they didn't its not relevent to this poll)
    C An alternate school

    (it would be great to keep this up to see what percentage really does get their top choice because when you get none of your choices, it feels like everyone else got their top choice!)

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  6. Kfilers,

    If you did not get one of your choices (no matter how many choices you put down)you are in a higher cohort in the waiting pool. If you get any one of the seven you drop to a lower cohort.

    The first cohort is medical, then siblings (forgot to apply as sibling), then thosee who did not get any of their choices, then those who did.

    If you want to get into a school with a typically long waiting list, you need to be in the higher cohorts. Medical and sibling usually take up very few openings. The third cohort generally fills up any openings. That's why some people don't put any schools except ones they would be entirely happy to attend.

    That's life in the lotto that is SFUSD's assignment system.

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  7. Assuming the process works the same way as last year:

    Yes, Round 2 is a new lottery with both a waitpool choice and seven additional schools.

    The waitpool choice is the one school you really really want to attend. They'll keep trying to give you this choice thru many rounds over the summer until the process ends about a month into the school year.

    The seven additional choices are schools you'd rather attend than your assigned school. If they can't give you your waitpool choice they'll try to give you one of these. After this round, these choices disappear and only the waitpool choice remains.

    A few tips that helped me last year:

    As you go thru the process, remember that a LOT of movement happens over the summer and into the first month of the school year.

    Register wherever you're assigned for Round 1. There's no benefit to not registering. It'll be less stressful during the summer, and even if you refuse to go there now you may change your mind by August.

    PPS-SF and the school district will have a few information sessions soon. You can get personalized advice there. Keep an eye open for them.

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  8. What Don and Mibb said.

    If you get one of your seven, but decide you really want another school, you have to be realistic: the 11 trophy schools usually don't clear their 0/7 waitpool, at least not until after the school year starts. Looking up the waitpool stats on the SFUSD website can give you a good idea what waitpools are smaller.

    Also, there's more churn in Clarendon, Rooftop from kids opting for private schools than e.g. West Portal or Alice Fong Yu. So, if you're choosing to waitlist a trophy school, choose one that's more popular with the private school crowd.

    On the lottery: I'm going to make the prediction that fewer will go 0/7 than in previous years. That's because I expect a smaller percentage will list the trophy schools (as it's well known now the effect of where you rank a school on your probability of getting in, which was't hte case last year), plus the expansion of the kinder grades. I'm going to bet less than 15% go 0/7 at the elementary level this year.

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  9. I suspect you might be right about fewer going 0/7. But it all depends upon where in live. What is a more important statistic for the individual is what is going on in their specific region. SFUSD likes to say that 75% got one of their choices. In some areas almost 100% get their first choice. Whereas, in other areas less than 50% do.

    The biggest factor that has to be overcome, IMHO, in getting a school of choice if you don't luck out in the lottery, is one's own impatience. If you are willing to move your child after 10 days to 2 or 3 months after school started, you can radically increase your chance of getting a spot. But most parents get nervous well before schools starts. If you have a K child, so what if they miss a few days or weeks of school (child care?). In the big picture, if you get into the school of your liking your child will have 6 years minus a few days or weeks.

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  10. "But it all depends upon where in live. What is a more important statistic for the individual is what is going on in their specific region."

    Well, it depends more on what you choose than where you are. But I can understand under a choice system that folks in the center of the city get edged out of the schools in their area by spillover demand from other neighborhoods.

    So Lakeshore gets less demand than Rooftop or Clarendon (I know they're all alternative schools, but bear with me), because Lakeshore's on the SW corner of the city and Clarendon and Rooftop are both centrally located.

    Anyway, I'm making the prediction that more people this year will be happy from the lottery on the very year it's going to be scrapped.

    "The biggest factor that has to be overcome, IMHO, in getting a school of choice if you don't luck out in the lottery, is one's own impatience. If you are willing to move your child after 10 days to 2 or 3 months after school started, you can radically increase your chance of getting a spot."

    I know parents who got into Clarendon 9 weeks after the start of the school year. As they had nephews and nieces there, it was much better for their kid, so they switched their kid from his parochial to Clarendon.

    "But most parents get nervous well before schools starts. If you have a K child, so what if they miss a few days or weeks of school (child care?)."

    Child care's the biggest issue with being waitpooled, IMHO. Many public schools don't have enough after/before school care. I knew that was the case with our school, so I was there at 7 a.m. the Monday after we got our letter, because I'd heard on a tour that the year before there were only 3 non-sibling slots in after-school care available. My spouse thought I was nuts, but by 9:30 am *that day* half of the 10 available slots were taken.

    Also, if you're waitpooled, you may have already ponied up a year's tuition for a private or parochial when you get the call from the EPC, and you're probably not going to get that money back*: it's hard to take the long view and accept that that year's tuition is a sunk cost, make the switch, and save five (or more) years tuition, than to continue: I've met a lot of parents who'd started at a private and then got into Clarendon or Alvarado but who didn't make the switch because they'd paid the tuition already.

    That's why IMHO parochials are a better Plan B if you're really interested in the publics than the independent privates - it's a lot easier to walk away from $6K tuition than $25K tuition.


    *Children's Day School has a particularly onerous contract in terms of committment & penalties, for example.

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  11. Afterschool programs, can someone help me out on this...since we have no clue where we will be assigned but the JCC program might be an option but I don't like the idea of a bus so there is also GLO on site. Anyone have experience with the JCC for a K and the bus, or with a GLO program (liked to know the school). When do you sign up? The JCC is already taking apps but I may not know the school for months. Help!

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  12. Don,

    If I recall correctly PPS says that people who listed 7 but got none have higher ranking in the wait pool than those who listed less than 7 and got none. Both are above those who got one of their 7.

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  13. I stand corrected on the point about not getting any of 7 choices as a higher priority. Now that I look over the wait pool policy again I do remember that. My thinking was that not that many will go 0 for 7 and I's rather be behind that cohort than get something I was unsatisfied with as a 3rd to 7th choice and be even further down on the wait list.

    Thank you for pointing out that error. Everything about this current system is so complicated it is hard to keep it straight.

    1. Approved Medical Appeals

    2. Permanent full-time site-based staff who live in San Francisco and wish to have their child attend the school where they work and have worked for the past three years, but their child didn’t get assigned in Round 1.

    3. Approved Family Hardship Appeals

    4. Younger siblings

    5. Students who listed 7 choices on their application form in Round 1 and did not get an assignment to any of those 7 choices.

    6. Students who submitted an application on time for Round 1 and did not receive an assignment to one of their choices

    7. Students who submitted an application on time for Round 1 and received an assignment to one of their choices

    8. Students who submitted an application on time for Round 2 and did not receive an assignment to one of their choices

    9. Students who submitted an application on time for Round 2 and received an assignment to one of their choices

    10. Students who submitted their application after the Round 2 deadline.
    olicy again i do recall that. But my thinking was that not that many get none of 7. So i did not consider it a major cohort. Here are the official cohorts:

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  14. Also, people trying to get twins into the same school show up in the siblings cohort. (I think that there are more twins there than "forgotten" siblings.)

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  15. A few points that I don't believe have yet been covered:

    1. In round #2, the wait pools are run first, then the district goes to your amended list of 7. So if you want a "trophy" school, by all means list it as your wait pool school, b/c you may get a spot that was opened up when someone didn't register after round #1. But the only way you get something off your amended list of 7 is if the school has spots even after all the wait pool placements have been made. Short story -- listing a high-demand school on your amended list of 7 is not likely to get you anything.

    2. Once you get your wait pool school, you are done -- no more changes. So although it's a good idea to wait pool a school you have a realistic shot of getting, make sure it's a school where you will be happy, b/c once you are placed there, that's your assignment.

    3. Mibb said, "Register wherever you're assigned for Round 1. There's no benefit to not registering." This is absolutely true. However, if for whatever reason at some point you realize you won't be attending the school, PLEASE release the spot ASAP. This is both a courtesy to people who are waiting for spots AND to the school. School funding is tied to enrollment numbers. The longer you hold a spot you know you won't use, the less likely a small/under-the-radar school will be able to fill the spot come August/September, and that affects the amount of money a school receives.

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  16. Here is a tip. Alamo will have several spots open for 4th and 5th grades next year. If you want to get out of your current school you might be able to nab one of these spots. In addition, you will then get automatic entrance into Presidio under the new assignment system for middle school.

    I don't know what the district's policy is regarding transfers. But this is an opportunity to get into an excellent elementary school and then middle school if the district is not reserving spots for students new to the district. That could be the only caveat. But it is worth checking out with EPC if these schools suit your child's needs.

    By the way, the normal 10 day count will be done after the third day next year.

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  17. Does anyone know if a family member (non-parent) can register a child at your assigned school for you if you are not able? I'm thinking in the event that we get our waitlist school at some point during the summer, can a grandmother, with written permission, register the grandchild?

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  18. OMG!! I just realized that with the new assignment system, we are all getting tracked for middle school based on our picks now and we do not even know which middle schools cover what areas. It would have made my picks much different.

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  19. "Here is a tip. Alamo will have several spots open for 4th and 5th grades next year. If you want to get out of your current school you might be able to nab one of these spots"

    So Alamo's your local school, eh, Don? You should see a nice little pop in your housing prices under a neighborhood system., yes?

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  20. "I just realized that with the new assignment system, we are all getting tracked for middle school based on our picks now and we do not even know which middle schools cover what areas. It would have made my picks much different."

    Don't beat yourself up.

    1. What assignment system to use was still in "we have 6 options stage" when there was a deadline for the

    2. There's more slack capacity at the MS level than the ES or HS level. You can see this by the fact that more families at MS level got their first choice or one of their 7 choices at the MS level in the current system than was the case at the ES or MS level. So it should be easier to get into an MS that's not the feeder school for your ES than it will be to get into an ES that's not your neighborhood school in the new system.

    3. Six years is a long time: the assignment system may change, and the performance of schools can radically change also, and your kid will change. So go for the ES that's best for your kid at this stage, and strategize for MS later.

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  21. This is a weird item, I found on the sfusd site. It concerns people who get an assignment they didn't request and want to keep it.

    It seems you have to go attend a counseling session to keep the assigned spot--which is a bit demanding, considering how much info you can get off the internet.

    If you don't attend the counseling session, do you lose the spot?



    "Question: Can I keep my assignment offer while I review other school choices during the counseling period?

    Answer: YES, if you participate in a counseling session, you will be able to keep your non-requested assignment offer during the counseling period."

    http://portal.sfusd.edu/template/default.cfm?page=policy.placement.options

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  22. 9:20, I think you're reading it wrong. The idea is "You can keep your assignment during the counseling period," NOT "You can keep your assignment if you attend a counseling session," which is I believe the way you are reading it.

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  23. I can't afford to buy. It is only likely to raise my rent if anything. I resent your implication that I have some personal financial interest in this. I have spent the last 10 years studying education issues in order to advocate for children in the way I see fit. It has cost my family quite a lot in lost wages, but it has its own deeper benefits.

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  24. Quite an assumption - that Alamo will feed to Presidio. It may - but then again, MS may well have non-contiguous feeder schools, and it will be up to the District where Alamo students go to MS after next year. There are, as yet, no maps. (Think August - in time for printing enrollemnt forms.)

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  25. "OMG!! I just realized that with the new assignment system, we are all getting tracked for middle school based on our picks now and we do not even know which middle schools cover what areas. It would have made my picks much different."

    Looking at the SE (Vis Valley, Potero, Bernal, BV/HP etc.) for Middle Schools, it doesn't look good.

    Horace Mann: API 623
    Willie Brown (Grades 4-8): API 536
    Everett: API 647
    Vis Valley MS: 652
    MLK Junior MS: 707

    You have to go into Lick (API 726) or to the KIPP Bayview charter (API 757) to start getting into a decent-ish range (although having said that, I really like Lick MS), but still a ways away from Roosevelt's or Giannini's scores.

    The feeder concept, although nice in theory, might turn out to be the most unpopular aspect of the new system.

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  26. Just wanted to wish everyone good luck with the Round I letters.

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  27. All this discussion about the new assignment plan while I'm just waiting to find out this year's assignment tomorrow! I thought there would be some talk about it but I guess there will plenty tomorrow. I do hope that there are more people this year who get one of their seven but I don't think its a lock. If you go back to the discussion after we turned in our choices in January, despite all the advice about hidden gems and under looked schools, the majority of people lists were heavy with the top 11. I thank 7:59 for wishing us all luck. I too wish everyone good luck and will be checking in tomorrow.

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  28. 7:15 and others,

    Highlights and the new 5-year demand list have been posted on the sfusd website. It looks like overall the numbers differ little from last year. Overall applicants are down (though I think the baby boomlet peaked for last year's class--does anyone have those figures?). Clarendon once again got over 1500 applicants (between the 2 programs) and Rooftop over 1000. West Portal, Lilienthal, Alamo, Miraloma, Grattan, Lawton et al still leading the list. So yeah, lots of people listed trophies. Many of them will be looking at a 0/7 letter tomorrow.

    http://portal.sfusd.edu/data/epc/Highlights2010-2011.pdf

    http://portal.sfusd.edu/data/epc/5yearDemandData.pdf

    I just hope that folks who listed the known trophies--surely if you are on this blog you cannot have missed the warnings--will not be stomping around here tomorrow complaining about the system screwing them over. Everyone had a choice, and putting Clarendon first on your list is like putting a 0/7 target on your back. However, if you did your best to put a diverse list, and still went 0/7, then stomp away! ;-)

    All that said, good luck to everyone.

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  29. I am glad to hear folks predicting that fewer will go 0/7 this year than last year. My fingers are crossed. I heard that if you exclude siblings about 50% of all parents went 0/7 last year. I don't know if that is really true, but I don't like that number one bit.

    My question is: in the event I go 0/7, I want to wait-pool a school that I have a realistic shot at which means I need to know how many other people are wait-pooled there, but clearly I won't have that data at the time I enroll for a wait-pool. So how does this all work ? And, can you change your wait-pooled school along the way ? And, does it hurt your chances ?

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  30. 7:55, the non-sibling acceptance rate is actually higher than that, closer to 70% overall. You'll hear figures like 40% or 50% but that is usually based on erroneous math: once you subtract siblings, you have to divide by the total number of slots that remain, not the total number of seats including sibling slots, in order to state the percentage of non-sibling kindergarten applications that got one of their seven spots. Recent history says that about 70% of non-siblings generally get one of their seven.

    70% still isn't so great, I grant you, but it's a sight better than 40% or 50%. And considerably better odds than most privates, though perhaps not some of the parochials other than NDV and St. Brendan's.

    Furthermore, the 30% that went 0/7 last year is hugely skewed toward those who put one of the following eleven schools as a #1 or #2 choice:

    * Alamo
    * Alice Fong Yu
    * Alvarado
    * Clarendon
    * Grattan
    * Lawton
    * Lilienthal
    * Miraloma
    * Rooftop
    * Sherman
    * West Portal

    If you didn't list one of these as your #1 or #2, and you listed a full seven schools, then your odds of going 0/7 are in the single-digit percents, at least based on last year's numbers, even in the universe of non-sibling kinder applicants. So take heart!

    Also remember that many of these 30% of non-sibling applicants will find an acceptable spot through Round 2 and the waitpools. Admittedly, this can be an ordeal of waiting.

    Btw, I bet under the new system that it's not much different--about 30% unhappy families, and more waiting as spots open up when families choose private, etc. There are only so many spots to go around in successful schools, and not too many families want to claim spots in failing schools (hence the under-subscribed ones).

    Good luck everyone.

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  31. Actually, the non-sibling kindergarten acceptance rate (those who got one of their seven choices) last year was even higher: around 74%. See Rachel Norton's blog post about this, based on the actual numbers:

    http://rachelnorton.com/2009/10/17/kindergarten-assignment-the-sibling-effect/

    The lottery can be very frustrating, and it has been easy to lash out at the district's admittedly PR presentation of the numbers. But the biggest factor in going 0/7 really is the competition for the so-called trophy schools. Those who avoid the trophy schools have an acceptance rate well over 90%, even excluding the ones with sibling preference.

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  32. well, i'm one of those who is 0/7 and the closest I came to a trophy school is listing Mckinley. which is in my neighborhood. So much for strategy.

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  33. I got 0/7 and i'm a little confused about how to approach round II since I put down schools that aren't popular but I liked. Should I not put these schools down again? I can't imagine touring and doing all I did to try and find a non-trophy school that our son can go to that was acceptable.

    I keep reassuring myself that it'll work out, but there is definitely and undercurrent of panic.

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  34. "If you didn't list one of these as your #1 or #2, and you listed a full seven schools, then your odds of going 0/7 are in the single-digit percents, at least based on last year's numbers."

    I can't see how the single-digit thing could be (this year). I personally know many families that didn't list any of those schools #1 or #2 and are now sitting at 0/7 (me included). Just from my small sample size, there have to be a ton of families out there in this situation.

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  35. After reading and re-reading EVERYTHING, I am still confused about a few points. Can someone help?

    1) We got 0/7 after round 1. If we submit an amended app for round 2, and get 1 of those to replace our current assignment, do we get lower priority in the wait pool or same? Since we got 0/7, I understand we have higher priority than many others and wouldn't want to screw that up for future runs.
    2) Is there a disadvantage to picking less than 7 for Round 2. (I'm not sure there are 7 likely to have spots that I would prefer over our assigned school.)
    3) From SFUSD's page about Round 2, what is the difference between the top and 2nd priorities? Is the 2nd one where no wait pool is submitted, or is the first one where only a wait pool is submitted?
    4) Do you have to turn in the wait pool/amended app in person?

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  36. We also did not list one of the 11 trophy schools as our #1 or #2 and we went 0/7. I know a number of people in a similar situation.
    I also know 3 people who listed trophy schools as their 1st choice and they all got their 1st choice. Go figure.

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  37. to 4:40

    "1) We got 0/7 after round 1. If we submit an amended app for round 2, and get 1 of those to replace our current assignment, do we get lower priority in the wait pool or same? Since we got 0/7, I understand we have higher priority than many others and wouldn't want to screw that up for future runs."

    Answer: You will retain your priority cohort in the waitpool runs even if you get an assignment off of the ammended choices. You want to think of the amended choices as a safety school. A school that you would prefer more than your current assignment.

    2) Is there a disadvantage to picking less than 7 for Round 2. (I'm not sure there are 7 likely to have spots that I would prefer over our assigned school.)

    Answer: No there is no disadvantage to choosing less than 7.

    "3) From SFUSD's page about Round 2, what is the difference between the top and 2nd priorities? Is the 2nd one where no wait pool is submitted, or is the first one where only a wait pool is submitted?"

    Answer: I'm not sure I understand the question. However, I think the confusion is due to a difference in the way the EPC thinks of Round 1 and Round 2. Most people think of Round 2 as the next stage in the process. The EPC thinks of Round 2 in terms of people. In other words there are Round 1 people - people who turn their application in by January 8th and Round 2 people people who don't turn their original application in until March 26th. These two groups have different timelines. Round 1 people have priority over Round 2 people pretty much throughout the process.

    4) Do you have to turn in the wait pool/amended app in person?

    Answer. It would be very advisable to do so even if they were able to manage the process. Good thing to ask at the counseling session.

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  38. Thank you Vicki from PPS!! You have so eased my mind.

    My 3rd question was referring to the excerpt below. What is the distinction between no. 1 and no. 2? Is this just meant to say that they will fill waiting pool requests before "amended school choices"?

    "Requests in Round Two will be processed in the following order:
    1. All students who applied on-time for Round One and turned in a waiting pool request.
    2. All students who applied on time for Round One, didn't get one of their choices, and requested a school that had openings.
    3. All students who applied between January 11, 2010 and March 26, 2010."

    (http://portal.sfusd.edu/template/default.cfm?page=policy.placement.cycle)

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  39. Wow that's really confusing - especially since they use dates like January 11th which I think was the deadline for Round 1 last year. Anyway, I think all its saying is that people who turn in their application by January 8th get priority over people who turn in their application between January 8th and March 26th. But I really can't make this out. I'll have to get clarification when I get a chance to talk with EPC staff.

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  40. Reading it again I think what this is saying is that they process all the waitpools first. Then they process all of the amended choices, then they process people who missed the deadline.

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  41. Question: Does anyone know of a public data source with the size of the waiting pools and the number of waiting pool acceptances by school from prior years? My wife and I would like to choose a waiting pool school from our original 7 list which gives us the greatest likelihood of clearing.

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  42. I found 2009 data on the SFUSD website (there are several different waitpool runs from 2009) -- here's the link. http://portal.sfusd.edu/template/default.cfm?page=policy.placement.round_one

    If that link doesn't work, I got there by scrolling down on the right side of the home page (there's a yellow bar toward the right of the page) until I saw the heading "Historial [sic] Information," and clicking on "2009-10 School Year."

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  43. For the last several years the EPC handed out an Historical Waitpool sheet at the counseling sessions. This showed you what the waitpools looked like in May of last year and how many people they placed by September of that year.

    I was told they will be handing it out again this year but haven't seen it yet.

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