Tuesday, November 3, 2009

Hot topic: twins

An SF K Files reader asked me to post the following:
I know there was a thread on this maybe two years ago but I can't find it. In any case, I'm wondering if you'd mind posting to your readers a question about twins and public school. I'm hoping to hear from people who have gone through the lottery in the last year or so and I'd like to know what the outcome was for Round 1. I know that some twins both get in to the same school but others get one kid in and the other wait listed. Thanks.


  1. I think twins should be treated as siblings (given high priority to be kept together) and either have BOTH kids accepted at the same time or BOTH wait-pooled. It seems cruel to do otherwise to a family.

    We don't have twins, but know many families that have dealt with problems getting both in the same school at the same time.

  2. I know there have been problems, but it is my understanding that they have improved somewhat. Aren't there instructions for submitting twin applications together? Annette at Lafayette as I recall has twins....maybe she and others will chime in here.

  3. When these questions came up last year, I got the official policy from SFUSD via PR person Gentle Blythe and blogged it:


  4. My understanding is that they guarantee twins will be kept together in Round 1 but after that all bets are off. With our twins, we decided to play it safe and listed a school at #7 that I was pretty sure would be a sure thing. That is the school they were assigned. Due to the fear that they would be split up, we did not do Round 2 or even waitlist another school. This is a very conservative strategy but luckily it has worked out for us and we are happy with their school.

    This is a little off topic but we also applied to a few privates and did not get in anywhere. I am sure there were other factors, but I think getting twins into private school is really challenging when you look at the ratio of applications to seats available.

  5. My son's kindergarten class at Grattan has 3 sets of twins. One set has an older sibling but the other two sets are first timers at Grattan. Go figure.

  6. There are 2 sets of twins in my son's grade in private school. One set has an older sibling at the school, but the other set was admitted as a new family to the school. However, I do know of a lot of twins who had trouble with private school admissions because of the number of slots.

  7. Starr King's Mandarin immersion program has five sets of twins that I know of, and there may be another. So it's very possible to get into language immersion with twins.

  8. We also applied with twins to both private and public school. No luck with the privates. In fact, the only twins I've known who have gotten into privates (or even heard of via other people with children at privates) are twins with an older sibling, or a younger sibling (younger one gets in first.) Or twins where one gets in, and then the other is pulled in the next year or so. My only thought was that I wished the private schools could have been more candid with us about our actual chances of getting in with twins applying at the same time. It would have saved a lot of heartache.

    For publics, we were very much in line with the thinking of 12:48. Put schools and #6 and #7 we thought we could get in (afraid of Round 2) and got #6.

  9. Success story here from last year: Got into 3rd choice public school with twins in round 1. Did not wait list at first or 2nd choice as we were very happy with the outcome. Did not apply for private as the kids were at a Montessori school they could have stayed at if needed through 5th grade. There are at least one or two more sets of twins at our school in K at the moment and I have heard of a couple other families whose twins got into the same school in round one.

  10. Octomom is totally screwed.

  11. 1st grade in Starr King Mandarin Immersion has three sets of twins but one set got in as 1st graders off the waitpool. I think they came in after 10 day count. SK has 2 classes of each so it's a good choice if you want to have the kids in different classes.

  12. Octomom will be ok because there are older siblings. But everyone else is screwed with that posse coming into the grade.

  13. Daniel Webster's SIP has 2 sets of twins in kindergarten this year. There are 2 kinder SIP classes, so siblings are separated - one twin in one class and the other twin in the other class.

    One set of twins was admitted in Round 1. In the case of the other set, one child was admitted before school started and the other was admitted after the 10 day count.

  14. I'm a twin -- the real kind not one these IVF wannabes. Twins range from sibling-hood to almost shared identities. Dressing girls alike is not a good idea.

    As they grow up, twins need space so ideally I would put them in the same school but different classes. We went to a parochial school where we were in the same class year after year. I wouldn't recommend it.

    There is a point of fairness though. I think that twins should be able to apply to General Ed tracks together, but it might not be fair to apply together to a special program like language immersion.

  15. 1:17- I am the original poster and I take offense that you would turn this very mild thread into something you must know is contentious. My twins ARE IVF- does that somehow make them not twins? As for immersion, while we're not interested in it, why would it somehow be unfair for them to apply when it's not unfair for a younger sibling to apply?

    Thanks to everyone else for the input. Seems like there's a mix of twins getting in and others having to wait it out. As for private, we're not applying to any.

  16. 1:17's comment reminds me of when I was asked by the cashier at Costco if my twins were "natural".

  17. People do the same thing with kids who are adopted:

    Are they yours?....uh yes, they are definitely my children and I am their mother, full stop.

    Are they natural?....what, you think they are cyborgs or something?

    Are they siblings (in the case of multiple adoptions)?....well, they are now!

    Anyway, best of luck to all the parents of twins out there.

  18. 1:17 here. My daughter is an IVF baby, so I'll grant myself a little comic latitude. Maybe you should, too.

    And while I'm at it, I'll tell a story about some friends who have had two children through IVF. The "younger" daughter was actually "conceived" at the same time as the older daughter. Does that make them fraternal twins? Does it matter ... at all?

    The bottom line is the stigma of IVF does not exist.

  19. Well it matters in that your friend is not going to try and get both her kids into K at the same time. It also matters that you seem to feel twins are not entitled to apply to special programs such as immersion.

    Good for you that you have an IVF baby but if you think you're being funny you should say something along the lines of just kidding.

  20. 1:17 You also offended me with your comment, but I won't elaborate. My twins were hormone stimulated and yes, since they are fraternal boy/girl they are in a sense like ordinary siblings, but they are still twins in every sence and do have that special bond at least for now that they are this little.

    We chose to have our kids in the same classroom (at least for now). I find this a highly individual choice. Our kids (maybe because boy/girl) are very different from each other. they have their own interests, their own friends and I'm not worried in the least that it would be disadvantageous for them to be together. In fact it is helpful to have someone who you are close to when you start school which has 350 kids total. We'll go over the books as we go along and if we find they need to be separated I'm sure we will find a way.

  21. 1:17 again.

    I have no sympathy for IVF parents because I don't expect any. Why should I? It's like expecting sympathy for left-handedness or any other trivial feature. Furthermore, if you're an IVF parent, then you know very well what it was like *before* your child arrived. Now that was a stressful time. Now I celebrate my daughter.

    Someone mentioned adoption. Parents who adopt are heroes. Step-parents are heroes. Special needs parents are heroes. IVF parents are really ... just parents.

  22. Not sure what your problem is - nobody said IVF parents are heroes. YOU said that you're a "real" twin and not an IVF wannabe. You are insulting people and if you can't understand that then please just stop posting.

    By the way- the original post was requesting stories of how twin parents fared in the lottery last year. Nobody asked what your take is on whether or not twins are just ordinary siblings. If you can't see that there is a distinct difference between having a 5 year old and a 2 year old go through the lottery with sibling preference and having to go through it with twins then please keep it to yourself.

  23. 1:17 again.

    Let me revise and extend those remarks. When we were first pregnant we met with our (IVF) friends and had a very, very emotional dinner. The relief was incredible. It is at that level that I have great sympathy for people who go through the IVF process and I've talked a few couple through it.

    But you can't carry that with you forever. At some point you have to move on.

  24. 1;17- What exactly is your point???? What exactly are we not moving on from? I'm guessing this is more a twins related issue and I'm going to say it has more to do with your own personal issues and nothing to do with a person asking about entering twins into the lottery.We are talking about twins, not IVF. Make a relevant point or move on.

  25. 1:17 again.

    I can see that you're pretty much tilted so, really, what's the point?

    To rephrase my original post: I am a twin. My childhood was a while ago, but I still remember it.

    I agree that twins should be kept together in the early years. But all children, not just twins compete to establish their own identity. That's what the whole birth order theory of child development is based on. Keeping twins too close for too long can, in some cases, present problems.

    Of course there are exceptions. I would say boy-girl twins are the least likely to have problems. But there are some twins who must be separated a bit (different classes or even different schools) and that is a very difficult parenting decision.

    How much can SFUSD help with this? They give some preference to parents of twins in the lottery process. Isn't that enough?

  26. The next time you have twins and someone tells you to put them in different schools then come back here and spout your opinions. You have yet to make any point relevant to the question asked though you've finally revealed that you have had some major issue with your childhood so much that you feel parents of twins deserve zero in terms of trying to get two kids into K at the same time.

    NOBODY asked about whether or not twins should go to separate schools- simply about the outcome of the process for those of us who happen to have two kids, born at the same time and going to school at the same grade level. Are you suggesting that keeping twins in the same grade is a problem? FYI- SFUSD does not give any preference except to ask parents to note twins on their forms and they will do their best. Many twins were assigned to separate schools in past years and that's what the original post was trying to get a feel for. Time to end this.

  27. I think SFUSD has been helpful in trying to clarify their twin policy, and the link from Caroline to Gentle Blythe is worth reading. All of the twins I know who went through the K application process last year (public) ended up at the same school (as his/her fellow twin,) even though we'd all heard horror stories of twins split up in years past. The school administrations seem to very receptive to parents' interests to keep twins together or split them up, even though the school may actually have a preference. SFUSD should actually get some credit here in moving toward a reasonable approach in dealing with increasing numbers of multiples in the district. And who cares if twins happen to be IVF or not; it is totally irrelevant to this discussion. Either way they're loved and hugely important to their own families.

  28. I know that 1:17 is having a bad day here, and I don't mean to pile on, but you may want to think about the statement that adoptive parents are "heroes." As adoptive parents, we hear that now and then and it always strikes us as odd. We don't feel like heroes any more than any other parent, and the comment somehow seems to convey that we did something "for" our child when, to be honest, we adopted our child simply because we wanted a child and our child needed a family. If our child ever views us as heroes, we hope it's just because we've been good parents, not because we adopted him (on the other hand, if he ever says "I didn't ask to be born!" we'll be able to say, "don't look at us, we had nothing to do with it" ;)). Sorry to go so far off topic.

  29. What about the poor stem cell clones? Or monkey-human hybrids? Doesn't anyone care about them? I wish they had an advocate like 1:17. Why should "real" twins get all the attention.

  30. 1:17 again.


    If you want to narrow the discussion to lottery and assignment issues, then Caroline's article pretty much settles the issue, doesn't it?

    Two kids, Jack and Jill apply for SFUSD schools. They each use the same list of schools and mark off twin on the application. Jack has some odds to get into Clarendon and Jill has the same odds. Jack gets in and Jill gets wait-listed for the second round with a sibling preference, the highest possible preference. Or Jill gets in and Jack gets wait-listed. That wait won't be very long even at Clarendon. If either kid gets into Clarendon then both kids get in.

    The way probabilities work is that two chances are better than one. Much better.

    So it seems that twins get a pretty generous deal with SFUSD, certainly better than with private schools. Is it fair to ask for more?

  31. I love how these discussions always degenerate. So entertaining.

  32. Don't feed the troll.

  33. The IVF twins are not as good as real twins one?

  34. 1:17--You are assuming twins have a better chance of getting in a high demand school like Clarendon than any other kid JUST because they are twins. I think this is not correct. The only twins that I know who both got their R1 placements put down schools that are less high demand. (SF Community and Starr King SI come to mind).

  35. The reality is that two chances are actually not better than one- we're talking about two separate spots. If I want to get my twins into a K class that has only 10 spots available that actually puts me at a disadvantage. One may get in but it seems that more often than not the other twin is then on the wait list. Twins are not put ahead of other sibling preferences so once those spaces fill up Jack, or Jill as you put it, are not at the highest possible preference. Not sure really what your gripe is here 1:17 but I think it's time you move on and troll another thread.

  36. 1:17 here. [BTW, no relation to the other 1:17, Beth Weise. She's brave enough to sign her name to every post.]

    Read Caroline's article which is based on quotes from the SFUSD spokesperson.

    If one twin is offered a spot in a K class, then the other is placed on the waiting list with sibling preference which places them before anyone else in round 2. Either twin can get accepted to Clarendon so they have significantly shifted the odds in their favor. That's not certainty, and who knows what actually happens when they close the doors at EPC, but based on what we do know twins receive a significant preference. The EPC can say they're twin-neutral, but I'm not convinced.

    Again, to repeat my question, what more would you want?

    I guess my point is that the SFUSD assignment system is relatively generous to twins and you need to recognize that and be appreciative. If private schools don't like twins, as some posters have suggested, then that's not good. It wouldn't be their only sin. But SFUSD is not the problem here.

  37. Oh, I get it. People are conceiving IVF twins so they can game the SFUSD. Yup. Mmm-hmm.

  38. So those of us with twins should be appreciative because we are on the waitlist? Once again you miss the point and the original question. Nobody asked for your crazy opinion on twins, IVF or sibling priority.

  39. I wonder if moms of non-IVF twins are as high-strung as the moms of IVF twins here...

    Seriously. 1:17 made an ill-conceived, tongue-in-cheek reference to IVF twins, and the IVF-twin moms here went nutso.

    It's stressful getting one kid into the "right school" in SFUSD. I can only imagine the stress level trying to get two in. I do think that 1:17 has a point about twin priority after Round I though.

    Say that in Round I twin-1 gets into Clarendon and twin-2 gets into, say, Glen Park. Mom and Dad put twin-2 on the Clarendon waitpool, and twin-2 goes into the sibling cohort, not the 7-choice-with-assignment cohort. That is an advantage, but probably a legitimate one.

  40. So now think about it. Is it really so unfair that the 2nd twin gets priority in the waitpools? Every other sibling has sibling priority and is accepted to any school even without having to go throught the lottery. Having children in two differnt schools accross town would make life unlivable for many of us.

    I want to give twin parents hope, my twins got into Miraloma in round 1 and no, we didn't game the system.

  41. 1:17 again

    If someone offered me a sibling preference slot for round 2 at any popular school in SFUSD I would say thank you. Thank you very much. That's because a sibling preference is pretty much a lock on getting in.

    So, yes, I do think you should be grateful.

    Let me put it another way. If you make a $1 bet on a coin flip half the time you win and half the time you lose. But if you change the bet so that you flip twice and if either coin is heads, then you "win" 75% of the time.

    That's what's happening here. Twins essentially get two shots at the lottery. If either twin gets a school on their shared list then the other gets a sibling preference in the wait pool. That's a pretty sweet deal.

    Can they both lose? Of course. But they had a significantly better chance than a singleton.

    Given all this, I would be hard pressed to come up with a system that is more advantageous than the current system is for twins. If you think entering twins as a group with one shot in the lottery would help, then think again. That would lower your odds. But at least then you might have a legitimate complaint.

  42. Hey some of us with twins conceived without IVF might think the slight - intended or otherwise, (and it did appear otherwise) - on parents using IVF irrelevant and a bit mean too.

  43. 1:17 here

    4:32 asks a good question. Sibling preferences are a good thing with one exception which I noted earlier. I don't think it's fair to grant preference to siblings into something like a language immersion program. Most of the immersion schools like West Portal have GE tracks and I just don't think it would be fair to other children applying to those programs. But that's the only exception I would make.

    As for twins, I've belabored the point that they get a preference and, through the magic of mathematics, it's actually a bigger advantage than you might expect.

    I'm delighted that your twins are at a good school. But this is a zero sum game and if some children are given advantages then others must give something up. So, at the very least, there needs to be some recognition of that.

  44. I don't get it, 1:17. You REALLY think it's easier for parents of twins?!? Somehow you resent this miniscule advantage you claim they have getting into a public school. Really?
    Don't forget in a few years they will have to pay for college. Think: 2 tuitions at the EXACT SAME TIME.

  45. What about a not so popular school? So one twin is assigned to a school not so popular and 30 minutes away and the other is wait listed- what a lucky family.

    1:17- I'm not sure what your issue is here with twins- I can only assume it has something to do with your being a twin but trust me- if you had twins you would feel very differently about the system. Also, I'm curious where your kids go to school. Did you have to do the lottery? Are you currently paying two private school tuitions??

  46. 1:17 here

    I'm actually not proposing any changes to the current system which as I've said is generous to parents of twins. I suggest only that you show some gratitude or at least pipe down.

    Really, you have four choices:

    1. Honesty. You can admit that you've been given an advantage in a very competitive system.

    2. The Altruist. You can recognize that you have an advantage and relinquish it. I wouldn't recommend this.

    3. The Realist. You can recognize that you have an advantage and be quiet. Bank error in your favor.

    4. The Republican. You can continue to be resentful even when you've been given an advantage.

    I would go with 1, but you may prefer 3. But don't go with 4.

  47. 3:47 here.

    Twins have a statistical advantage of getting both into any particular school in SFUSD. For a low-demand, 50% chance school, a singleton will have a 50% chance of getting in for Round I. Taking the odds together, one of a set of twins will get into the school 75% of the time. Combined with sibling priority in the waitpool, a set of twins is more likely to get into the school than a singleton. If a school is like Clarendon and has a 5% chance, the twins will have a 7.5% chance.

    It's not minuscule and it's not merely a "claim." It's a real advantage.

    And twins probably deserve that advantage.

  48. I would love to hear from other twin parents, not people who are twins, about what their experience has been. Are you grateful as 1:17 proposes you should be because of your supposed advantage? The original post asked about what twin parents have experienced in the past year, not whether or not we are so lucky that we get to do the lottery for two kids at once. And for those of you who think we are ungrateful, griping parents, you'd be wrong. The stress of the lottery is hard enough, put yourself in our shoes.

  49. I think the only one who thinks parents of twins are "ungrateful" and "griping" is 1:17. The rest of us are pretty sympathetic.

  50. So if we were a family that wanted the bi-lingual immersion offered at (I think) Sutro, we shouldn't be able to apply? What about if we wanted to go to De Avila? Where's the logic to that? If there's an older sibling in the program the younger one gets in so where is the difference?

    Agreed that 1:17 is probably alone in thinking we are ungrateful but do others really think SFUSD gives us an advantage?

  51. 1:17 here.

    As for the immersion program, I don't think that a younger sibling should be given a sibling preference. They should be given a GE preference or they can enter the lottery for immersion. Twins should be free to apply to immersion programs together and that's a pretty good deal.

    I'm looking at the lottery too. And leading up to it I've had to learn a lot about SFUSD and it's taught me a ton about complex issues of equity. I don't have a solution to each of these issues, but it can't be that everyone gets what they want. The bottom line is that demand exceeds supply and there is no assignment system possible that will make people happy or less stressed.

    But really, of all the issues of equity that I've encountered the twin preference is so not in need of fixing it's laughable.

  52. Um, I think keeping families together in the same school (whether it be immersion, or GE, etc) might make people less "stressed". Kind of a no-brainer, dontcha think?

    Of course, since you are the parent of a single child, perhaps this is something you might not really grasp or care about.

  53. You're arguing with yourself 1:17. Nobody is saying that there's anything necessarily in need of fixing regarding twins and the lottery.

    As for sibling priority with immersion and special programs, really??? So assuming you have more than one child, and you are looking at one of the bi-lingual programs or plain old immersion or whatever and this is important to your family in terms of native language spoken at home, you have no problem in that only one of your children could be in this class? Why in the world should two different aged siblings and twins be able to both attend the same GE program but not immersion?

    You're kidding yourself if you think saying things about equity and people not getting what they want has anything to do with siblings. I've yet to hear anyone complain about the sibling priority system because honestly it makes a lot of sense. Two young kids in two different schools? Not a lot of sense.

  54. Good to know you don't just have a problem with twins but for anyone with more than one child.

  55. 1:17 here.

    What a lovely bunch! 7:37 & 7:45 I just want to cuddle you.

    I've pretty much challenged the group to talk about the current assignment policy for twins. It's either broken, fair or generous. Pick one and explain why.

  56. Um, no thanks. I'm actually trying to quit.

  57. Go to sleep 1:17. You're challenging us? Nobody wants to discuss it. If you can't add anything to the conversation- discussion of how people fared with twins in the lottery last year- just leave this thread already.

  58. not 1:17 here, and first-time poster to this thread--

    I do believe twins have a statistical advantage at an oversubbed school given that a kid in the sibling preference waitpool is very likely to get in. If I were a parent of twins, I'd want to keep this system. All of the twins I know ultimately ended up in the same school.

    That said, I can see how some parents, facing the additional stress of R2 or waitpools, might want to give up that advantage in return for both twins being placed at the exact same time. The disadvantage to this certain placement of both in the same round is the decreased likelihood of getting a school you want; in fact you would probably be decreasing your odds from numbers above those of singleton kids to numbers below, since it would be harder to find 2 spots at oversubbed schools at the same time in any given round.

    I think it was wise of the twin parents to put good-odds schools on their lists, but that is true for ANY parent. I guess the specific difference for twin parents is the idea of facing the waitpools 0/7 with TWINS is just that much more stressful, so a lower-stress strategy may be preferable.

    Bottom line, I think twins are treated pretty well in the system, but it's still stressful for parents with twins to secure those two spots!

  59. 12:17 said "If I were a parent of twins, I'd want to keep this system. All of the twins I know ultimately ended up in the same school.

    That said, I can see how some parents, facing the additional stress of R2 or waitpools, might want to give up that advantage in return for both twins being placed at the exact same time.

    3:47 here. Totally agree.

  60. I think you are at a disadvantage with twins in Round 1. Let's say that they pulled Twin A's name for first choice school. Twin A is linked to Twin B and unless there is room for two children with that diversity profile I think they both go back in the pot.

    I think it's great and makes sense that they allow twins to wait as siblings in the waitpool, I just didn't want to risk that they would be assigned to different schools which we could not have pulled off with our work schedules. Plus, I can't believe how busy we are already with school events, activities, volunteering, etc. I can't imagine trying to pull that off times 2.

    Good luck to all you twin parents out there going through the process right now!

  61. 1:17, are you the "evil quaker" theorizer from the private school process thread? Just asking.

  62. 4:21, that's not my understanding, but maybe Caroline via Gentle Blythe can clarify. It is my understanding that each child is run separately, meaning that each kid has a shot at X over-subbed school (thus increasing the odds that one will land it). This means they might be separated in R1, but then the other gets sibling preference in R2 and waitpools for whichever school the parents want more, and it's a very good shot to get in on sibling preference (seriously).

    The way you describe would indeed be a way to do it, but it would lower the odds for that family of getting X over-subbed school, as you say. However, it would relieve the family of going through the R2 sibling preference thing. Personally, I would choose the better-odds-and-wait, but if most parents of twins would really prefer the lower-odds-but-certainty-in-R1-of-placement-together, then you should lobby the district to change it. I think the present system came about as a result of past lobbying.

  63. I'm still not getting how each kid trying for one spot actually increases anyone's odds. If Jane Doe is trying to get the same spot but meets a diversity criteria that I don't then my applications for two kids certainly does nothing in my favor. I think maybe what people are getting at is that IF one twin gets lucky and gets in to their first choice slot then the sibling priority, if the wait pool clears, gives some type of advantage? Still don't see how it's an advantage over anyone when we have two kids of the exact same age that we need to get in to kindergarten. Same as Jane Doe with her one kid but I happen to have two .

    4:21- Twin A is not linked to Twin B. They run them separately and then try to get the second one into the same school. Of course as you noted, there is a risk they are not only assigned to a school you don't want but to two different schools. Did you end up in private? We considered it but it's just too much to swing two at once. Now considering a move but that's also based on other factors as well as the school situation.

  64. 9:56 you are correct that both Twin A and Twin B would be equally advantaged or disadvantaged at any given point in the computer process in terms of diversity points. However, in most of these over-subbed schools it comes down to a huge pool of kids with the SAME diversity profile. At that point, it is based on tie-breaking factors like neighborhood (if that applies--but not for alternative schools) and then rank listing--and beyond that, it is simply random. So it is entirely possible that your Twins A and B could be in a large pool of children whose diversity profile is the same and the computer is pulling names quite randomly, or randomly from all #1 listings anyway. At that point, you would have a slight advantage, because Twins A and B would each have a shot, whereas Singleton C would have just one. And once Twin A or Twin B has that spot, then the other twin can waitpool with sibling preference, and those cohorts really do clear, especially at those over-subbed schools where the parents are also applying to private.

    Bottom line, it may be an advantage for you. It's not really a disadvantage in any case, and your second twin will almost certainly get in after a short wait. Whereas it would really be a disadvantage to go in as two kids together, because there may not be two spots in R1. It's certainly more advantageous in the lottery than it is in the private schools unless you have an older sibling. Which doesn't mean it's not stressful to have twins--I'm not saying that! Just that the lottery system isn't bad given that you are trying to place two at once in the same place.

    Hope that makes sense.

  65. "I think you are at a disadvantage with twins in Round 1. Let's say that they pulled Twin A's name for first choice school. Twin A is linked to Twin B and unless there is room for two children with that diversity profile I think they both go back in the pot. "

    No. See the info at Caroline's link. They're run as separate lotteries, and if they're separated, you have the choice of either taking a school assignment or taking one of the assignments for one twin and then having the other in the sibling waitpool.

    Priority in R2 and being in the sibling cohort for the waitpool, while stressful, is a big deal, as even for the high-demand schools, these cohorts usually clear.

    Twins will have more of a problem if you're looking for a place after Kinder though.

  66. My brother has twins and they are 4 years old. He brings them up according to a specific method described in a book. I don't remember the author and the name of the book, but he found it in the internat. I guess the website is http://www.picktorrent.com
    here I remembered it cs i found a video of how to make a massage for an infant. It was very useful for me.